Of girly men who fail to convert irresponsible women from liabilities to assets.

Sharing a comment – is this troll-talk or a genuine comment?

You don’t understand the difference between an opinion and a fact, do you?

No 1) Women are irresponsible: This is an opinion
No 2) Millions of indian girls have been aborted: This is a fact

You can weasel your way out of the opinion (no 1) with a counter-opinion. It doesn’t matter because it is just an opinion. But you cannot weasel your way out from a fact (no 2). No 2 is a tangible problem. To undo this fact, you will have to make indian women responsible. Convert them from a liability to an asset. Running an online blog dedicated to criticising and putting (shifting) the blame on indian men does not help anything. At best, you will get the same irresponsible men (the girly men) I was talking about earlier posting one nonsensical comment after another. Two months ago, these same girly men were running all over the internet posting comments for hanging and castrating the delhi rape accused and really putting on a show for the female readers to show that they were “outraged”. But in the end, Opinions belong in the dustbin. Facts are all that matter.

Below is my response. How would you respond to this?

*****

you will have to make indian women responsible. Convert them from a liability to an asset.

IHM: Indian women are ‘a liability’? Which Indian woman is a liability and for whom? Do you say this because Indian women are generally not compensated for the choices they are denied, careers they are not ‘allowed’ or for motherhood and parenting?

How can the society ensure that marriage (and homemaking) does not result in women becoming financially dependent on their husbands?

Or do you mean the way  Indian girl children are seen as liabilities, by Indian society, parents and family elders?

Who should the Indian girl children become ‘assets’ for?

For their own parents or for the parents of the Indian budhape ka sahara (i.e. for their future in laws)?

Do you mean they should stop relocating; renaming themselves; giving up their social lives and support systems, career opportunities, property rights, personal growth, freedom and self reliance to serve and obey the families of the Indian ‘assets’ – the ‘budhape ka sahara’ (the Shravan Kumars)? Meaning Indian baby girls should be told to stop preparing for this future from the day they are born (if they are born)?

What makes some Indian parents decide that sons are ‘assets’? The same thing that makes Indian parents see Indian daughters as Paraya Dhan. So the only way Indian daughters can be seen as assets is if they stop being paraya dhan and become budhape ka sahara for their parents.

Another thing that seems to make Indian parents see baby girls as liabilities is sexual crimes against women and children. How can the baby girls take the responsibility of ensuring that they stop these crimes (so that they are not seen as liabilities)? Traditionally, silencing (by blaming, shaming, threats or murder) the survivors, or killing future ‘victims’ was seen as an acceptable method for dealing with sexual crimes. Today we are acknowledging that centuries of (well intended?) blaming, shaming, boycotting, silencing, stigmatising and killing of rape victims has not discouraged the rapists from raping.

Running an online blog dedicated to criticising and putting(shifting) the blame on indian men does not help anything.

IHM: It’s not men versus women. Misogynists can be both men and women. Patriarchy does not empower all men, nor does it completely control all women; patriarchy (in India) basically empowers the parents of budhape ka sahara.

Those controlled by Patriarchy include, the much valued sons, sons of abused women, the fathers of paraya dhan and the younger men.

Do take a look at thirteen interesting facts about Misogynists, here, 13 things Indian Misogynists believe about men’s mothers and sisters.

At best, you will get the same irresponsible men (the girly men) …

IHM: Girly Men? Let me quote Cynically Engineered.

1.

“Contrary to what some people think, men are conditioned by patriarchy too. Just like women, they are brought up to “fit in” with their preconceived gender role. And this conditioning certainly affects the way we look at the world.

One of the biggest expectations from a man is financial success. What image do you see when you picture a man who would be traditionally considered “successful” in society? No doubt, he has a great job, a big house, expensive gadgets, a fancy car and depending on your point of view, either a wonderful, loving wife or an ensemble of good-looking women hankering for his attention.” Do read more here: Honor and Masculinity: How Patriarchy Warps Your Thinking

2.

“Why are so many people insecure about their gender identity? Why the hell is it almost compulsory to subscribe to the cheap pop sociology…

News flash: If you have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome and have no issues with that state of affairs, you ARE male. That’s all there is to it. You don’t have to prove it. You don’t have to shout it from rooftops. You won’t get any trophies for it. You are not entitled to any special benefits for being it. You don’t get to order people around. Others don’t get to order you around. You are entitled to emotions. You are entitled to being human. You, sir, are just another self aware organic lump with integrated support systems, cognitive thinking abilities and the potential to do as well and better than any human has done before you. Nothing more and nothing less.” [Link: Man’s Man? No thanks.]

Two months ago, these same girly men were running all over the internet posting comments for hanging and castrating the delhi rape accused and really putting on a show for the female readers to show that they were “outraged”.

IHM: Those who were asking for castration of the rapists were looking at rapes as purely sexual crimes, caused because the rapists were sexually attracted to the victims. Many rapes are crimes of hate, power, aggression, resentment and Patriarchy (E.g. rapes for revenge, to dishonour, to teach a lesson etc).

About capital punishment for rapists: Why don’t we hear demands of capital punishment for acid attacks? Because ‘robbing a woman of her izzat’ is a crime not against the woman, but against her husband, honor, community – Patriarchy. Would you call a Rape Survivor a Zinda Laash?

36 thoughts on “Of girly men who fail to convert irresponsible women from liabilities to assets.

  1. IHM to say the least ,this is outrageous.GIRLY MEN????? what does that mean is being girly( i read it as sensitive and supportive of women’s issues) BAD ?
    And its sick that any human being can think of another one as an asset/liability .are we talking about herds of cattle?absolutely disgusting opinion whoever this is.

    • “its sick that any human being can think of another one as an asset/liability .are we talking about herds of cattle?” Couldn’t have said it better.

    • I’m a girly man.

      I cook dinner for my family. I changed diapers when the kids where small enough to need it. I stayed at home doing babycare while my wife worked. I regularly use words like ‘emotion’, ‘love’ or ‘compassion’. I wash and fold clothes. I do dishes. I vacuum floors and pick up lego-blocks left by the kids (or try to make them pick them up themselves). I’m a feminist, and feel both embarassed and ashamed of some of the incredibly silly stuff said by some men lacking even basic understanding of the subject.

      Those are the facts.

      My *opinion* is that being a girly man is an awesome thing to be. My opinion is that “girly” doesn’t mean anything, they are merely constrictive labels to keep people in tiny little prisons of “appropriate” behaviour. In real life, being a girly man doesn’t stop me from also being a manly man.

      I think what *really* infuriates guys like this joker, is that these days, more and more women prefer a girly man. I dare say, where I interested in a date, I’d have better luck than this joker. And that makes him feel threathened. And like a rat pushed into a corner, he snaps at everyone.

      He’s right to feel scared too. If people like us have our way, there’ll be no place for ideas like his in our future.

      • Love your comment and totally agree. If that’s what a ‘girly man’ means then my husband is a ‘girly man’ and I would not have married him if he wasn’t. I am much more attracted to such ‘girly’ man rather than the other kind.

    • Not really outrageous, if ‘girly men’ are those that are sensitive and supportive of women’s issues, I’d be proud in being one!!

      Problem lies in the commentator, with all his machismo should we maybe refer to him as a ‘caveman’ ?

    • The guy lost me at ‘Women are irresponsible: This is an opinion’ and ‘girly men’.
      Both those statements reveal his level of maturity and ability (or lack thereof) for objective, rational thinking.
      Next troll – exit as you enter please!

  2. Oh the last point – the very last point of not calling for a death sentence in the context of acid attacks, just makes the argument. Thank you for helping me connect the dots.

  3. What is this concept about being a liability or an asset? Shouldn’t being a human being be reason enough for someone to have the right to live instead of being aborted? And it is absurd to demand capital punishment for rapists. Rape is not bigger than murder and only those who consider a rape victim as a ‘zinda laash’ would demand for capital punishment. Such people are the ones who consider a rape victim’s life as finished and the victim as good as dead.

  4. Ha ! Ha! Ha!
    I have been called names before but I will wear this “Girly Man” badge rather proudly.
    I may comment later.
    Rushed now
    Regards
    GV (Still in California, will be back in Bangalore in three weeks)

    • I read this post once again.
      Frankly, it’s not worth taking the trouble to make a serious comment or reply.
      I rather think he was just “yanking your chain”.
      You have have dignified him with a serious and mature reply which I don’t think he deserves.
      I would simply laugh it off and ignore him.
      Regards
      GV
      (I just polished my “Girly man” badge. It gleams now and I am going to flaunt it. Thanks for this honour, letter writer!)

  5. But in the end, Opinions belong in the dustbin. Facts are all that matter.

    In that case, the OP’s entire monologue is unworthy of consideration, since it is a set of opinions.

    As a matter of fact, the quoted statement above is also an opinion, and therefore, by its own foggy logic, belongs in the dustbin. This quickly leads us into a semantic loop, which puts me, as a reader into a rather confused position. :/

    IHM will pardon me for being rather flippant, and not posting a true rebuttal; my excuse is that it is impossible for me to take someone seriously if their assertions include statements as (do pardon my language) monumentally stupid as the one quoted above, as well as talk of ‘converting’ 50% of the population from a ‘liability into an asset’. Surely, the OP and I use very different definitions of the terms ‘asset’ and ‘liability’.

    As for the part about ‘girly men’, I am not sure what that even means in this context, and am therefore at a loss for a response. I will only say that the OP seems to be exactly the sort of person that Cynically Engineered was targeting in his/her post.

  6. ‘Girly man’? Reminds me of ‘Joru ka Gulaam’ :roll: I’m proud to be one if that’s what some pseudo-intellectual choose to call me :D

    Dear IHM, if this guy believes/concludes that this blog (or for that matter feminism in general) puts/shift blame on men, I believe, he is too stupid to be given any of your attention whatsoever :-)

  7. Hmm, people are assets and liabilities …. kind of creepy.
    I wince at the thought of what this person would have to say about someone who’s disabled (don’t really want to know).
    Every human being is entitled to dignity and respect. I don’t think he gets this fundamental concept.

  8. First of all I would like to tell the LW that women are not components of a ledger who can be converted from liabilities to assets. Women are human beings.

    Secondly, this argument about converting women into assets is never ending. A strong intelligent woman with a mind of her own (all characteristics considered as ‘assets’ by women) is considered a ‘liability’ by many (most?) men because she threatens their god given right to be superior to the female sex. So, if the LW means that women should be ‘made’ less of a burden to their families (therefore, an asset) by educating them and ‘allowing’ them to work (thus bringing in money), they’ll still be seen as liabilities by a vast section of the society because they threaten the notionof manhood (whatever that is). These women will be ridiculed just as the LW ridiculed men who think women are human beings.

    • What happens ? He gets the chance to have a multitude of dear friends of both genders. Since he treats women with respect, he’ll be treated with respect by them too. If he is looking for romance, he’ll have much better luck than the nongirly men, atleast among the women worth being with. Also, he gets laid more. (any man who’s feeling not-sufficiently-loved should try doing the dishes every day for a week)

    • I think this is something along the lines of JKG. If you look at it, it actually helps to have better relations and cohesiveness, but some people such as such commenter who lead to this blog look down up on it for reasons best known to them

  9. “How would you respond to this?”

    I wouldn’t. I would classify this person’s opinions as ridiculous and move on without a second thought.

    “Two months ago, these same girly men were running all over the internet posting comments for hanging and castrating the delhi rape accused and really putting on a show for the female readers to show that they were “outraged”.”

    By girly, I think he means educated, liberal men who are capable of critical thinking and questioning society. It’s all good.

    As for chemical or physical castration and/or capital punishment–I don’t think these should be legal for any crime.

  10. This screams troll to me. ‘girly men’ aside, it is ludicrous to posit that only facts matter. The fact is that women can be equal to men but look at where we are

  11. Forget all the ‘opinions’ he has given, that as he says should land in the dustbin, the very fact that he took the pains of writing this letter by just reading the headings of your blog posts ( if he ever actually read your posts and comments, he cannot give such opinion of the blog ) makes me ROFL :)
    He does not deserve a response, only one suggestion – please READ IHM’s posts and the comments and if you know your English, you have got the responses.

  12. If Indian women are such a liability, this commenter should celebrate the declining sex ratio. In a hundred years, the number of assets (men) will far outnumber the number of liabilites (women).

    India will become an asset-rich country and the liabilities (women) will lead such misreable, cloistered lives that most sensible parents will choose to only give birth to assets (sons).

    Why do men like him not understand that both genders are necessary for a society and country to flourish. What has India gained from celebrating men and devaluing women?

    A society that is self-destructive, because it wants no women to be born. Those that are born, wish everyday that they were born in a country more women-friendly than India.

  13. *Indian women are ‘a liability’? Which Indian woman is a liability and for whom?*
    In a way, Yes. For that matter whoever cant stand for herself is a liability for herself.

    *Do you say this because Indian women are generally not compensated for the choices they are denied, careers they are not ‘allowed’ or for motherhood and parenting?*
    Why & How somebody else has power to control their basic rights without their own consent. Meek silent submission considered consent at least in India.

    How can the society ensure that marriage (and homemaking) does not result in women becoming financially dependent on their husbands?
    As there are thousands of women already are not financially dependent though this dependency doesn’t come just with finances. It is a state of mind. Just like slavery.

    Who should the Indian girl children become ‘assets’ for?
    First of all, for herself.

    For their own parents or for the parents of the Indian budhape ka sahara (i.e. for their future in laws)?
    That should be a personal choice, though in absence of social security system in India, parents tend to think that way ( budhape ka sahara way)

    *Do you mean they should stop relocating; renaming themselves; giving up their social lives and support systems, career opportunities, property rights, personal growth, freedom and self reliance to serve and obey the families of the Indian ‘assets’ – the ‘budhape ka sahara’ (the Shravan Kumars)? Meaning Indian baby girls should be told to stop preparing for this future from the day they are born (if they are born)?*

    Again personal choice. She should be the person controlling all this and no body else.

    *What makes some Indian parents decide that sons are ‘assets’? The same thing that makes Indian parents see Indian daughters as Paraya Dhan. So the only way Indian daughters can be seen as assets is if they stop being paraya dhan and become budhape ka sahara for their parents.*

    why should be a girl “looking forward to prove herself as an asset”? ( to anybody but herself)

  14. // ” You don’t understand the difference between an opinion and a fact, do you?

    No 1) Women are irresponsible: This is an opinion
    No 2) Millions of indian girls have been aborted: This is a fact

    You can weasel your way out of the opinion (no 1) with a counter-opinion. It doesn’t matter because it is just an opinion. But you cannot weasel your way out from a fact (no 2). No 2 is a tangible problem. To undo this fact, you will have to make indian women responsible. Convert them from a liability to an asset. Running an online blog dedicated to criticising and putting (shifting) the blame on indian men does not help anything. At best, you will get the same irresponsible men (the girly men) I was talking about earlier posting one nonsensical comment after another. Two months ago, these same girly men were running all over the internet posting comments for hanging and castrating the delhi rape accused and really putting on a show for the female readers to show that they were “outraged”. But in the end, Opinions belong in the dustbin. Facts are all that matter.”
    //

    my response to this letter, as well as your reply to it, IHM :
    very clearly, first of all, i am very wary of feminists (or anti-feminists) who dont have actual information about what feminism entails. yes, maybe the comment you quoted was a troll. yes, he ( i assume that from your reply) is a product of patriarchy.

    what i understand from his comment: there are a lot of indian women aborting female fetuses. and killing newborn female infants. the women who do this, have to be informed about this huge wrong they are doing. most of them do this because of their inability to say NO. either to family, extended family, or to the financial liability that having a girl child brings…[ or, like you said, to decrease the chance of a child growing up to be raped.. but that is a smoky excuse, in my opinion] Another reason is the lack of education of the mother-to-be, that helps her to make the decision that a girl child will be a liability to her.. (yes, there are women taking the conscious decision to abort a female fetus because she knows what future awaits her child, and there are women forced to abort ). A girl child born in the financially lower classes is indeed a liability.. saying it is not so, will not change the reality of our patriarchal culture.

    a woman who grew up with a broader perspective, might think more about her children’s future, whether male or female… and this is what he means when he said make women more responsible.

    educating the girls is so much more important than writing about it in a blog.. i get the point.. but i support IHM, in the fact that this blog IS important, because this has helped a lot of “educated” men and women to at least think about their patriarchal convictions and question them.

    in my opinion, ‘girly men’ was NOT referring to the men who support women’s rights in actual life… the OP referred to the men posting comments on the blog (in virtual life) showing outrage, yet does not do anything in their actual life, to change the patriarchal society they live in.

    • i am sorry if this indeed was a troll comment, but i took the comment as a honest one, because i think “knowing english” and “expressing themselves clearly” are two different things.

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