What would make two young boys do something like this?
There were indications. Shaukat (not real name) had been cruel earlier – cruelty to animals is one of the indications of Conduct Disorder. But symptoms are often not taken seriously.
Children with the disorder may exhibit any of these behaviors:
abusing drugs or alcohol dependence physical cruelty to animals or people cheating in games or at school deliberately destroying property forcing sexual activity on others having frequent physical fights, bullying, threatening, or intimidating others having difficulty interacting with others or behaving in social or school setting [More indications and information here.]
These young boys found empty beer bottles and probably plan to sell them to buy some treats. Do the parents know where they are and what they are doing? Most Indian parents feel boy children do not need much guidance or supervision. There’s also a belief that only girls (if at all) need to be protected from sexual abuse.
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Teens are the most disruptive period of human development. The hormonal changes are difficult to deal with. Ironically we as parents withdraw since we feel the kids are maturing and becoming responsible. Lawlessness, violence and misplaced macho behavior can lead to such horrific crimes. What is sad is that they bartered away their friend’s life for Rs.20,000/-
Shocking news.
Re.: Most Indian parents feel boy children do not need much guidance or supervision.
True. Maybe because since ages males were always outdoors for work And women were home-makers. Only last 10+ years society is changing And that too because of pressure to survive because of rise of expenses And wishes unlimited. Earlier it was not.
Shocking. If the symptoms were caught earlier, a few lives could have been saved.
I totally agree on that Tomboy
This is shocking. At the crucial stage of personality development – the teens – these children are left to fend for themselves. Its a pity that there is no proper guidance, for these children.
That news article really shook me. Now, instead of crudely punishing those two kids, its better they are made to understand the extent of harm they have done. Efforts to make them better human beings should be followed.
This news has really made me sad.
Teenage is a stage which is complex and often full of confusion. Its important I believe for parents to keep a tab on their children particularly during this stage.
BTW, have you read the news of NMIMS students beating a 13 year old maid and posting it on You tube.
Here is the link
http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?Page=article§name=News%20-%20City§id=2&contentid=201004232010042303093811942a4bee0
Its really shocking. When the child’s development starts from the mother’s womb, no wonder to see kids like this with a totally unattended childhood ending up in all these.Mental disorders are now like an epidemic.Its striking not only kids,but also the adults.
I have seen people in small villages living peacefully in their small houses with small dreams and with a disciplined daily routine of doing things.But now in cities with all the facilities and with enough money,many of us feel vaccant and depressed often with no reasons..A total black out is now a very common word used by almost all metropolitians.
mental disorders are affecting almost everyone now without any caste,age,creed,colour,money or any other discriminations. its high time to think abt this…
Me – Anjuzzz such cases happen everywhere, but in villages they don’t make it to the news headlines. One of the cases involved two young children killing a two year and then throwing him the village pond. Such children grow up to become psychopaths, I think they should be watched. Early diagnosis can warn others to take action or to keep an eye on him.
yeah..u r right.Its happening in villages too:(
Oh my! Shocking!
Most shocking is the fact that a woman of all of 35 years had asked for the boy to be killed!! Now how shocking is that? What symptoms do we associate to her…what abnormality would we label her with!?
And for what? Stealing goodies from her shop!! Why the hell didn’t she alert the police…or the kid’s family? Making two young children murder a third one is as sadistic as it can get!
It would be in the best interest of a lot of people that these two kids are counselled and made aware of what they’ve done — and through their freedom and help, find the woman who set the fuel right. She should be caught and punished for life — bail-less imprisonment for life: so, she won’t ever motivate anyone for a murder!!
Oh! This is very very sad!
14-15 yr olds did this? Shocking!!! :O
what?! i would like to blame the media. just because its easy.
i wonder how the boys were being treated at home and school before they went totally off their rocker? and this sabroon, how weird is she?
Me – She has disappeared it seems.
UmmOn at least one of the boys was showing symptoms of a dangerous disorder – but nobody recognised the symptoms.
I know parents need to keep an eye on their children esp. adolescent ones, but it’s not always possible esp. when both parents are working…I’m guessing the parents of the boys in the photograph both work to keep a roof over their heads…
Me – Yes Sraboney I think so too. And I agree, this boy has proved that he is dangerous to society.
Sraboney, the part about cruelty to animals is a giveaway to what people become like. Sadly it is very often overlooked.
In India, psychological problems are often swept under the carpet even if they are suspected because they are generally considered a private matter with a heavy social stigma…There is also the issue of lack of awareness even amongst the educated…
Take for instance, depression…Millions of people suffer from this but how many get help? It’s not really thought of as an illness because people are not aware that it is one…It’s blamed on nerves and brushed off esp. in women…At the most, the family doctor prescribes tranquilizers as if they can cure the cause…
Me – I absolutely agree. That is exactly what I felt.
Me – I too have seen children who are clearly in need of help, but only a few have parents realise or acknowledge this. One woman I knew constantly compared her older child with the younger one who couldn’t speak clearly and wasn’t doing well in school. He was a sweet boy then, but he was being pushed. She was not proud of this and spoke openly against the child.
I do agree that several parents tend to be in denial about their child’s behaviour problems. However, I also believe that the disorder ODD was coined to get parents off the hook in a way….I’ve seen other parents say that their child has ODD as if there is nothing they can do about it when in fact “treatment” for ODD involves parent training! CD on the other hand, I haven’t really had to work with but I would guess in future with more neurobiological studies, we may actually find something wrong with the brains of these individuals. It’s a lot more hardcore than ODD. And Stars…that kid in your building has serious issues!!! Unfortunately in cases like that, I reckon eventually the parents will learn the hard way that their child is in fact not the angel they think them to be!
It works both ways PsychBabbler. Some parents I know, when their kid was diagnosed with behaviour ‘disorders’ like ADHD have gone all out to get help, changed their parenting and brought the child back on track…it was beautiful to see their dedication. They were in denial until a school or counselor gave the ‘problem’ a name…then the shock forced them to accept intervention.
Others, like you say, take themselves off the hook and blame it on the kid or medicate him/her, never realising how much power parents have to change things.
And anyway I think ADHD is being overdiagnosed. Half the time, it’s a problem at home, which when fixed, the ‘ADHD’ improves magically. So, like you said, it’s the parent training, marriage counseling or whatever interventions for the PARENTS, not the child, that made the difference.
CD and ODD do sound scary though, and as a psychologist, you would know better whether these do have an organic cause.
@Bhagwad, @ PB @ Starsinmyeyes
I totally agree with you
Here in the U.S., people used to overlook a lot of behavior from boys. The saying was, “Boys will be boys,” which was meant to imply that it’s normal for boys to run wild and occasionally gang up on other boys. But in the past several years, with so many horrific crimes being committed by teens and even children, this attitude is quickly falling out of favor. Sometimes I just don’t know what to think of the world. There has always been violence, but part of me feels like things can’t always have been as bad as they are recently.
Me – Indians have the same attitude Deana
And the other extreme is when little boys are bullied and beaten by fathers in the hope that this would make them ‘tough’. If they are afraid – they are called wimps. If they are shy, if they ever show nervousness or sometimes even if they show compassion, they are seen as weak. Is it surprising then that they think aggression and violence are proof of ‘manliness’!
Shocking to see both these cases!!
I had a conversation with my sister-in-law as to whether it is a good idea to keep kids at boarding school, considering teachers are better suited and trained to spot concerns and in also addressing such issues. They are also under a watchful eye, which one can not ensure at home. She was completely against it as she felt it would not solve bad behaviour, and as a parent you would not be bonding with your child also.
…considering teachers are better suited and trained to spot concerns and in also addressing such issues.
It is like passing the buck. Parents create the monsters and then expect the schools to fix them into gentlemen. Agreed children do not come with manual, programing is difficult, rebooting is not an option and there is no return policy. But this should have been thought of before procreating.
Here are few references:
Bott, Sarah, Shereen Jejeebhoy, Iqbal Shah and Chander Puri. “Towards Adulthood: Exploring the Sexual and Reproductive Health and Adolescents in South Asia.” Geneva: WHO 2003.
Sodhi, Geeta and Manish Verma. “Sexual Coercion Among Unmarried Adolescents of an Urban Slum in India.” Bott et al. 91-4.
Taylor, N. and T. Signal. “Attitude to Animals: An Indicator of Risk of Interpersonal Violence.” Journal of Home Economics Institute of Australia 11(3) (2004): 9-12.
Me – “In India children between the ages 8-14 run away to escape severe beating by parents” Isn’t that the worst thing a parent can ever do?
Shocking, to say the least! Our society is becoming so violent and inhuman that is boggles the mind sometimes.
BTW, not sure the feminist reference really fits in here (‘boy children don’t need supervision’). Children are children. And these ones are murderers. Boy or girl.
Me – That wasn’t a feminist reference amreekandesi, take a look around you and see how most of us neglect little boys, I see them playing cricket all day, from little boys to adolescents. And we ignore the fact that they are also just children and can be abused, hurt, exploited just like any other children.
whoa! shocking! The story completely shook me! Mental health disorders are always taken so lightly in India. Mostly, even if the parents do notice something odd, they are in denial – esp because of the social stigma attached. It`s very sad..
OMG! This is so shocking! Unbelievable!
Child is a human, and will be an adult in coming years, ignoring the violent behavior in childhood or teenage would mean we have a society of violent adults who were never corrected when their personality was shaping up and hence would not be able to see what’s wrong with them now. Problems like these need to nipped in the bud!
This is horrible. … and even worse is the fact that a supposedly grown up, mature woman initiated this act ! It is hard to forgive the lady, but even worse when we consider why she wanted the 13 yr old boy punished … maybe, he was stole due to hunger and not to bug her …..
At various instances in life, we do feel like hurting people, but to show it on a defenseless teen, and that too for so small a reason is a sign of a serious mental disease affecting the lady as well…. I wish she could also experience the death row..
About the child … well, they are exposed to all this on TV etc …
It is more a concern how the lady managed to convince 2 teens to murder their friend
Me – She has not yet been found – it is possible that the teenagers are lying. Can’t take the word of someone who could do what these boys have done. I hope we find out the truth.
Disturbed at the cold bloodedness of such young kids mercilessly taking the life of their friend, and also wondering how much his family and society must have been a cause of all this? It is appaling how we fail youngsters and they in turn fail all themselves and society! Frightening to even try to fathom the reasons behind this!
OMG!! Truly shocking!!
An adult woman asking some kids (and that too suffering from a mental sickness!), to kill, because the other kid stole something from her shop!! Disgusting! Weren’t there other methods to stop him from stealing…talking to his parents…
shocking!!
more so the fact that such things happen around us all the time, a child or teenager hurting an animal, tearing out plants etc etc….and we just shrug and move on while all the while the child is silently asking for help…
Me – True Pinku…
And Pinku – a very Happy Birthday to you
read this news today..extremely horrible and shocking….but more sad because there are so many kids/teens out there who are suffering from god knows what and there are these hidden predators who are using them for their selfish reasons….also the fact that such teens will soon become psychologically ill adults..its a vicious circle in fact.
This is so shocking to read, IHM. The most shocking part is that young children are capable of doing things like this.
‘Most Indian parents feel boy children do not need much guidance or supervision.’ – This is so true. Some people feel that allowing a boy to do what he wants makes him ‘street smart’ – so if he learns to hit his peers – it will help him when he grows up. The sad thing is, destructive behaviour of this sort can only cause harm to the child. And as you say, cruelty to animals and to those less powerful than you, is a clear indicator that things are not right. In some cases, parents have no option to monitor closely, as might be the case in this boy’s. But in so many cases, parents just do not feel the need to monitor and correct a child right at the beginning. I recently saw a 4 yr old boy behaving abominably, punching other children and while his mother looked on with a smile..
Smitha, I don’t understand how the child’s mother can be so impervious to the pain of the other mother. No? The mum is responsible, more than the child, I think. She is probably even proud that her son is the bully!!
Yes, Pals – She was proud! She actually felt good that her son could ‘take care of himself’
It is so sad, isn’t it?
OMG!! Teenagers killing so brutally…. really shocking.
Chilling!! actually spine chills.. :O I dunno what is the way out..?? Juvenile homes?? I guess the law needs to be more stringent on all counts and the worst of it all,they were told to do so by a woman…
Me – Nikhil, it is a myth that women are above violent crimes. Can’t imagine why she wanted the child killed, but also consider that these boys are violent, cruel killers – we only have their word here, that she paid them to kill.
I feel one of the children (Shaukat) here is a future psychopath, he is even more dangerous – soon he won’t need anyone to tell him to kill or torture.
oh My… This is beyond imagination. Din’t parents of those two boys realise the violent streak in their boys?
About the symptoms you have listed, do they apply only for children or for grown-ups too? I can think of two many adults ho have most of those symptoms…! of course, they exhibit their violent nature only when they are angry,… like when they drive through heavy traffic or while arguing with their spouse or even a neighbour, while travelling by public transport etc etc.. May be it is in their nature… but at the same time I am thinking probably they need medical attention.
Me- Iniyaal click on the link for more information – I think they need to have exhibited these three or more times – these are children and adolescents, but that site has more information also.
Iniyal,
These are typical signs of an abuser. These sings manifest very early in life and by the adulthood they are rather cemented. These are learned behaviors, the abuser learns to manipulate the other person by yelling, screaming, generating guilt by pouting, creating a scene (embarrassment to the other), trying to harm him/herself (threatening suicide, driving recklessly, banging their head in the walls, punching or banging doors etc.) or breaking things to get their way. Their aim is to create so much chaos that the other person just gives in to buy peace at any cost.
Abusers have poor problem solving skills. They will not take responsibility for their behavior. It will always be other person(s)’ fault that they insitgate the abuser to act in that manner. If nothing else it will be the fault of the world at large, “mujhe duniya ne aisa bana diya… Main koi aisa paida to nahin hua tha… etc.”
If you know such people please challenge them for their behavior because they are spoiling the peace around you and violence in community is every body’e business. It is because we think it it is their personal matter or not our business that gives them encouragement to continue abusing others. Support their victims. Once or twice someone refuses to give the abusers what they want they are taken aback and they may change their ways. They are usually accustomed of getting their way. For the list of signs of an abuser please check romance rating scale @ http://girlsguidetosurvival.wordpress.com/take-a-quiz-are-you-abused/
For children there are controlled tests on CTS 1 & 2 they all begin with problem solving skills and level of frustration endurance.
I hope this helps,
Desi Girl
Thank you for the information… It helps a lot.
I will check out the link you gave and also the one IHM told about.
For all you know, this kid might end up being one of our future ministers. Crazy country we live in !
Scary…
Wonder how will the society look like by the time Fida is a teenager…
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Read this horrific article this morning. Teenagers are known to associate less to reality and more to possibilities. Crime for them is nothing but misdirected energy.Incidents like this are truly revealing that vulnerable kids are being used by adults for their selfish needs.
Me – A teenager could be misguided to kill, but they didn’t just kill – the way they nailed the body (crucified) and from what the villagers have mentioned about Shaukat’s activities – he looks like a psychopath. Until the woman is found and questioned – we don’t know if she is connected in this, we only have the killer’s word for it.
Awful…Teenager do go through ups and downs in emotions..all of us did and most of us turned out all right. I feel that money is a motivating factor in most cases, the desire to be rich and have luxuries makes some people do this.
Plus our movies like ‘Ghajini’ do make violence an acceptable form of self expression and young impressionable minds get affected.
The second case seems like the guy is on his way to become a Psychopath…the signs are all there..
I don’t understand, why, with time, we see more and more violence, in different and abnormal forms , all around us.
Me – Such things happened earlier also, but they were ignored or accepted as unfortunate facts of life, because one couldn’t do much. We have stories of cruelty in history and folk lore. Today we are more particular about children being allowed to be children till they 14, and then they stay minor till 18. Earlier nobody would have cared how old they were – history and mythology has stories of eyes being gorged out and much, much worse.
One reason could be that people are not able to cope with the pace of life. Parents are stressed, Kids are confused and led by wrong notions of being ‘powerful’. And very often in India, naughtiness in Kids is praised and bandied about. Therefore parents may not get to realise the violent streak. Or perhaps they don’t mind, as long as they are not disturbed. The website was very interesting, going back to read the entire article now.
Another thing, Media tends to exaggerate news. So anything we read in the paper/watch on TV has to be taken with a slight pinch of salt. I’m not supporting the guy, but just throwing a word of caution against media.
Me – I hope we hear of what happened to this boy, if he is allowed to be free – he will kill more people and with worse cruelty. He has a problem.
Yday I read something in the paper that made me want to throw up. Itseems a gang of 12-13 teenagers blackmailed a girl into sending her young cousins to them. They apparently raped a 3-yr old child, threw the body into a river, and then raped the younger brother of the child. I feel so sick at the thought of such violence! Again, am not sure if the media was exaggerating. But even if it was, still its unbelievably outrageous!!
Me – Where did this happen Pal? India? Media might give an opinion which they shouldn’t, but I wonder if they will change the facts …
This is the link:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/823641-child-rape-killing-shocks-nation
Don’t know how authentic the news is, as this particular newspaper isn’t too reputed. Still, something must have happened for this sort of news to be published. And its disgusting!!
Shocked is such a mild word…its not just abt the killing, its also about how they didnt spare the body even after the death.
Agree with the others, amonst other problems neglect at home is a primary cause for children to go off the track. And juvenile homes are not the answer. If anything they get worse there.
This is shocking indeed! “Most Indian parents feel boy children do not need much guidance or supervision. ” Exactly! They fail to see that boys are as vulnerable as girls.
I know of a couple who always used to take pride in their son’s histrionics. The boy would scream at others, make all sorts of faces at his parents in front of others and funny part was the parents used to take great pride in showcasing him. Why? Because he was a kid? Thats the excuse they all give,’arre yeh bacha hai!’ This overlooking of misbehaviour is what makes such children go astray. The key is to recognize the problems your child is facing and make efforts to bring him/her out of them.
Me – Deeps I wish we had classes where all parents during pregnancy were guided about upbringing of children and about such serious problems. Even if the classes are optional I am sure most parents will come for the first baby. And what a blessing that would be. They will then know that neglect cannot be called ‘pampering’.
And even boys need to be protected …
Really scary IHM… Somebody must monitor the kids and should guide them… Else there are enough reasons for them to turn violent
OMG that is really horrible,How can someone deploy teenage guys to do such brutal task? I am shaken by this news…And the picture of guys running with bottles in hand is the reality in many cities in India..I don;t think their parents are even bothered to know what their kids are doing? and where/with whom they are playing..its upto the parents to mould their kid’s life !
It is very unfortunate that social stigma prevents parents in accepting that their child has a problem.Have been helping one such boy who was diagnosed with ADHD as a child .Even though he has been monitored since childhood ,his absence from home for studies has aggravated the problem so much that he had to be hospitalised for a disorder of more serious nature.Very taxing for the boy and his family and friends as it is a lifelong rehab programme for him to be in the mainstream.we must be aware of the signs and extend help if required whenever we come across such children.
I have kids, so i really feel sorry for those unfortunate kids who might have been dragged into this type of hideous crime… instead of being guided…
omg!!
I’m too shocked to say anything!!!
Its so cruel but how would common man understand or detect that behaviour IHM ? Even if someone detects such traits in a small child, they would not be very comfortable to approach the parents of that child and express their concern even though its obvious that the parents have been pretty blind to it.
Just a thought…..There should be some kind of parenting classes for new parents to detect such behaviours early on and also they should know where they can turn for help. If not classes then atleast some pamphlets/booklets for the new parents that should be handed to them by the doctors when they are taking their new baby home…or even when they take them for vaccinations etc, in order to spread some awareness. I am sure even the poorest go to some kind of doctor during pregnancy or for vaccinating their child.
2Bs mommy
Award for you on my blog ::: http://readingthroughrsmind.blogspot.com/2010/05/awarded-awarded.html>>>
Its so horrid to read about these young fellas na
adolescents behaving like this is very disturbing and worrisome…but im sure children dont become violent one fine day… there are indications (such as those u mentioned) parents need to pay heed to them and get help for a counsellor/psychiatrist if the need be..
How come no one is condemning the 35 year old who instigated the 2 boys. What kind of role models are these boys surrounded by? Children only learn the reality that we teach them. Before we talk about inborn cruelty and disorders.. which may be a very valid point, but another might be that in the reality that they have grown up with, this is “normal”.
I really would like to know more about the value ecosystem of these children..
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Guess you removed the post “The art of not being provocative”. I could still read it in the Google reader. It’s an amazing post and you should publish it.
Just to add to the conversation: we can simply compare the number of street crimes against women in the countries where they are forced to dress modestly (south Asia, middle east) and the countries where they choose to wear whatever they want (western world). Both world has these so-called “uneducated and ignorant people”. Although in my experience, education has nothing to do with street molestation. Even the educated guys in India do the same. But still let’s say its only the uneducated and ignorant people who engage in such activity, then what makes it different in the two world? Two things: The way women are viewed in society, and the zero tolerance law.
The former is very important as no one in the western society will dream of doing anything like that and getting away with it. Women are not expected to suffer in silence and they don’t. guys ogle in western world too, but no molestation, no verbal abuse, no prosecution for looking good. It’s about respecting women and their freedom which is something we don’t teach our males. EVER. That’s the root cause of the problem.
The second point: zero tolerance policy. Well we have a lot immigrants from the conservative societies as south Asia, middle east in western world (with varying level of education). And yet, they don’t engage in such behavior here. Why? Do they get miraculously cured the moment they touch western soil? No. The fear of law and the seriousness with which the community here takes such offenses stops them. They know they won’t get away with it. They know they might loose their job. they might even be deported, if they dare to engage in such activity.
Even though, I should add: I have experienced wandering hands in Indian gatherings in US (the reason I avoid it altogether now). You see, the moment they are back in the Indian society framework, where there is no respect for women and they can get away with it, they are back to their old self.
The worst problem in our society is that the daily suffering of women in our street is trivialized. It’s accepted as part of daily life. Anyone raising their voice against it is, seen as someone trying to create a scene. What’s the big deal, according to them.
Honestly, living in US for 6 years, I know how nice the life can be outside that kind society. The difference: in India I used to dress my worst possible, in US I dress my best possible. And like it or not, how you look makes a hell lot of a difference to your self esteem and self confidence. I never had this much confidence in India, ever. Forget about society blaming me for being a victim: I blamed myself for being a victim all my life. Do you know how humiliating that is? How bad that is for one’s morale, self confidence, self esteem? And dressing to look your worst so that you are not targeted: do you think that’s fair? Do you think it helps our self esteem? Do you think when you know you are looking your worst, you can still go and compete with others (mostly men wearing their best) in interviews?
Richa I had updated a link on this old post and it showed as a new post in google reader. The post is still there. I am glad you liked it. I am going to copy paste your comment on that post (or you can do it). This is where the original post is –
http://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/the-art-of-not-being-provocative/
Sad..so sad…at an age when they should have fun, this is what they urn to. This just shows that education is ofcourse what our country should aim for, but formost is trying to abolish poverty…more corporate involvement in seeing their part of the society is without any such evils…