Girls these days….
1.Guilt
Niece 8, asking, ‘You never, ever get angry with your kids?’
2. Pride (mixed with the realization that somebody needs a shaking.)
Daughter says, ‘I can’t feel strongly about feminism ma, I haven’t seen any of this discrimination you talk about …’
3. Helplessness
A friend’s daughter, “Whatever they say aunty, we may be good at studies, equally independent – everything, …but for our parents we are still girls… we can never be equal to boys…”
(Just like that in the middle of a random conversation about something unrelated)
1. To the niece.
IHM: “err umm I don’t like to, but sometimes I do… err umm…”
Accusing, stern eyes, “What can make you angry with them?
IHM: Err… (really lost) … err sometimes they get late for school, if I don’t pretend to be angry they’ll miss their bus, then we have to drop them…and then on top of that she says, I should let her drive!”
“Maybe it’s a trick so that you let her drive! You should let her drive.”
IHM: “But she needs a license M!”
Serious, considering eyes: But what’s there to be angry in this? You can explain this nicely also?
IHM: I should you know, normally I do… only rarely sometimes if I am angry, or tired …
Serious, grandmotherly eyes: You should sleep in time.
2. To the brat (daughter): A long lecture, and a reading list.
3. To the friends’ daughter: (very casually) Yeah I know…we went through a lot of this too, but ended it with our generation, mothers have more power than they realise, nice weather, no?? We can change the thinking of a generation… you will be in a position to put an end to such discrimination in your immediate family, don’t let this continue… Cute hair clips! …Biases can actually even strengthen us…
If only I didn’t know and like her mother, I could have said so much more.
But now I do talk to her mother about a whole lot of things including how my mother sometimes confused me, with talk of independence within limits, equality but not too much equality, ….about how girls need even more support… about how a girl’s tattoo, and noodle straps, don’t necessarily clash with her dreams of a happy, bright, independent future, where marriage is just one of the nice things, (not the reason for her existence).
I wonder how else could I handled it, specially the last one…
Nice Post. But the dilemma lies in the fact that when we strive for equality we are sometimes doing it in a reactionary bent of mind. Equality comes because we teach our daughters that she is equal because there is no other way. We instill in her an unshakeable sense of self-esteem.
I agree.
That particular brand of self esteem does not need to prove itself by murdering her mothering, nurturing instincts ,
I agree…
it is also not enhanced by noodle straps,
This girl is being told not to dress in certain ways because her parents feel that it is not the right way for a GIRL to dress, Chrysalis. Here the noodle straps have become symbolic of individual freedom, clothes are a common way to suppress individual freedom, women are being told not to wear Western clothes all the time, (nobody else faces this restriction, only women do)… I have blogged about it here
http://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/no-jeans-for-indian-daughters-in-law/
alchohol or substance abuse…
No individual needs alcohol to make a place or establish their worth …though I suspect women are reminded of this a lot more often than all other individuals 
We saw this happening in Mangalore also.
I agree, but I said nothing about alcoholism or drug abuse here!!!
she does not have to become a “manly woman” to establish her worth or her place.
Chrysalis this one confuses me – always!! What is a manly woman? Is being able to go out and have fun a sign of ‘manliness’?? Is being able to support your family called ‘manliness; Is not wanting to have children manliness? (Nearly all the men I know like having children) …I think it’s better to be ‘yourself’ than to make a pretence of being someone you are not, that can be called cheating, and also cause unhappiness to others and oneself… don’t you agree?
She is a mother because no one can do a better job and the non economic nature of her expertise does not make her small however much the society would like to prove otherwise.
But society has successfully achieved this, we Indians don’t even want to have daughters! …we better start changing this thinking.
She is a woman and she is good and she is equal because God made all equal and God made no junk.
I agree.
You should write a book on bringing up children…
Aww thanks
My daughter who is 4 1/2 sometimes comes to me and says,”Maa, girls can’t go to America” or “Maa, girls can’t be a pilot”…I don’t know who feeds her all this crap, she won’t say…Kids in school? Maybe…Obviously she’s hearing all this talk somewhere so there are people who still think women can’t so the same things as men…I can’t understand why educated men and women still think like Neananderthals…
Sraboney, could be the kids in school, or teachers talking to each other, or some TV show
She’s smart! I am sure she senses you will assure her otherwise!
And Neanderthals are exactly what such people are.
you have handled it well…
but, it can be a bit frustrating – when women are the first ones to not appreciate or respect themselves…
When one sees self as a second rate citizen, there is no point in asking others not to discriminate…
LOL at the conversation with your adorable niece…
Pixie she is made to feel like that home, mothers can make so much difference, but we don’t realise it!
Daughter is right in a way. If you watch the world through your own eyes you will see a lot of good and some bad. But if you rely solely on newspapers reports, there is no limit to the agitation and agony it can cause.
She must know the realities of life. She has to live in this world, so I am proud that she has never seen discrimination but I feel she needs to know the truth about the real world 
Maald Daughter has never been discriminated against so she thinks the whole world is like that
“equality but not too much equality”. Ahh ha! How much equality, then? Interesting observations, IHM. It is a mindset. More equal than others, that’s what one gets to finally.
Yes and think how confusing it must be for the poor teenager 
Thanks Mr Gopinath
I hope you are picking the tag!!?? I remember that post by your daughter and realised you were close to your kid, that is why I tagged you:)
This post made me thinking again abt lot of things.
Before talking abt equality, i think gals shud be allowed to do wt they want, equality is something far away stuff.
You have put it well, equality will come first let girls just be!!
I am one of the representatives of modern thinking n upbringing in a conservative south Indian background. Though my parents allows me to do wtever i want, once i am at home things r bit different.In front of relatives my mom still prefers me to be in salwars n churidars, n talk in a minimal way, tie my hair,.. nd dont wear jean at all, nd dnt talk to boys over phone (specialy in whn a relative is ther) (my moms family still feels gud gals dnt do the otherway) this was pretty confusing for me in the beginning as i am font of jeans al the times, loosen my hair and talk whn ever i feel i shud, n studied outside most of the yrs..
I think your parents wanted to help you live a full, happy life, but they cannot handle the relatives. Relatives are like peer-group to parents, unfortunately… and we also follow the herd mentality, for Indian parents their relatives sometimes come before their child’s happiness (objection to inter caste marriages comes under the same bracket!) But your parents wanted to help you I think. Nothing can beat having a good job in a nice cosmopolitan city for girls, if relatives are narrow minded then it is better to stay away from them, just meet them for occasions, but we are such a society, there is even a chance that these relatives children fo through the same thing! We care to much for public opinion, when in fact if parents stand strong, nobody will say anything to a girl. You may like to read this post, http://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/of-guns-and-weddings/
Now i cant blame her for the way she is, n i am nt able to blame myself also coz of my upbringing…
Never blame yourself, we are all conditioned by our upbringing and our society, women specially, sometimes even when we know we are right, we are very, very confused, because we have grown up in such contradictory environment ….And thanks for your comment Devil, you really made me think!!
The problem with people especially Indians is that they care too much about what others in their peer group or family will think or say…If people stopped worrying about others’ opinions, life would be a lot different…
We are hypocritical show offs Sraboney
See how much money our maids spend on their children’s weddings! They take loans, and starve but must have festivities and feasts… Middle class is no better!
Bones, IHM, I totally agree! We are hypocritical show offs! We will starve to have a BIGS, GALA wedding, but will not spend a fraction of that amount on educating a daughter, so that she gets to be independant for the rest of her life! Simply because it is not done as per society!
thinking aloud-a lot of us (boys) have had trouble because of the cut of our jeans, wanting to wear earrings, the way we cut our hair, wearing torn jeans, tying a shirt at the waist etc etc. after i grew up, i am expected to be more “educated” than the wife, earn more, have a car, a respectable career and “settle down”.
i’m NOT in any way trying to suggest that girls do not have a nasty time with “expectations”. sometimes, however, we are all attacked in different ways.
I totally agree with you Baruk
In fact I even wrote a post about it. … this does a lot of harm and still somehow we are such creatures of habit, we stubbornly carry on the same way 
Here’s the link to the post I wrote about this,
http://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/mip-men-in-pink/ Do take a look, I’d like to know what you think.
I actually feel i like echoing your neice here! You never, ever get angry? Either your kids are angels or you’re a saint! But then again, it stands to reason that a saint would only have angels…so I guess I can understand that!
She is a little grand mother, she can be very stern and we all seek her approval on such matters 
Hey I told her I do get angry!! And she was most disapproving!!
BTW, I haven’t seen you in my neighbourhood for a pretty long time now. Something I said?
No gosh not at all!!! I have been trying to settle down, adding a Blogroll, and an Awards page (not finished yet) in this new wordpress blog… and then no connection for more than 24 hours
But I will be there now, asap!!
I wish I’d known someone like you when I was growing up
Worst is when women think it’s fine to be expected to fit into sterotypes:(
Very well said IHM. And I happen to know a teenager who’s sceptical about feminism too because she doesn’t see any of the discrimination they talk so much about. I can’t really talk at length with her… I just feel sad because she and her generation of girls (a lot of them, not all) seem to take so much for granted that we’ve struggled for. It’s meaningless to them … but then again, maybe there are those among us too who take property rights and voting rights for granted…
Sad, because they should know what the reality is! They are not really immune, women being beaten in Mangalore for being in a Pub (that men have been frequenting for years) and some men and women actually thinking the women asked for it, shows how neanderthal (quoting for a comment above) we still are……….
.
Ah I like your niece she has a future in being a counselor or may be a judge
Oh yes!! She will be a very strict judge
@friends daughter… its the mindset thats got to change.. may be she will be better with her daughter
Yes, Winniw the poohi I think so too!! And she is a lovely girl, I know her better now… and even her mother, I am going to blog about her mom too…
@friend.. ah.. tough luck with that.. biases are subconscious mostly.. and not easily changed
…In some ways it helps because she likes my daughter so she doesn’t think I am too forward in my ideas on raising Indian daughters.
…so many times women are more confused than narrow minded
Nice . I have to keep convincing a friend of mine about merits of feminism , and why every thinking woman should be a feminist . And I finished you tag , with 17 things that make me emotional .
I started reading and there was so much anger in that post, that my internet connection went off while I was reading it … I have the page opened in another tag, will reach there asap
Are you saying my angry post blew out your modem or something ?
lol that was a possibility
That post has all the anger imaginable, by the way I just left a comment finally 
*Ahem* Phew!!! I guess, if you come up with a diet, you’ll come out with a feminist diet
LOL Rakesh, but A Feminist diet would be a healthy, wholesome diet, you can say I do live on a feminist diet, not to be skinny but fit
Wonder whether you search for equal number of male and female eggs when u go shopping?
How would that help the eggs or me?? And I think most think are given gender unnecessarily … like girls hobbies, boys hobbies or colours, or sports, or games, or subjects to study … etc
I guess your daughter is right IHM. I think the same!
But I will never want her to be unaware of the real world, they must know the truth also to survive …
She says this only because she has never seen any discrimination
*Now waiting for the lecture and reading list
*
Very Funny !!!! 
ROTFL
i have so much to say on this post IHM, but so much boring work with dream sequence deadlines…WAIL!!!!!
me to be back shortly…
Looking forward eagerly!!
U r a such a sweet mom, u dont get angry on ur kids
Hey I do!!! My niece took charge of me for that…:(
We used to get scared of my mom and would never predict when she will be angry
My mom was like that…
On Number 3, the reading list would help too. Sometimes it helps to get an outside perspective. Will write in detail later.
Oh god, Im sure you are going to murder me after reading my 55 er fiction. Its something to do on these lines !!! Gulp !! All the best (wishing myself !)
I echo Bones’ s words. You should pen down something on how to bring up children and how to be supportive of them when they become adults. I will be the first one to book the copy.
(Still waiting for that royalty. You and SRK cheated me)
I also agree with Baruk. Many things are expected of guys too else mocked at when not fulfilled.
IHM,
I want my daughter to feel exactly like that.
She should not ever have to utter ‘women are equal’, just the way she doesn’t have to say earth is round. She will just know it as a fact. She will know it as the only truth there is. She will know it as the only world that exists.
I hope my daughter grows up to be equally insensitive to the cause of feminism. Then only, I would know that the mothers of both boys and girls did their job right.
Regarding what your friends daughter feels, it starts so early..’you are so lucky that she doesn’t run around like boys but likes to sit and color’…I think I did a post once, I don’t know may be girls are different but its a total emotional atyachaar for me when somebody utters such lines when children are present. That and ‘don’t cry like a girl’…there are modern, educated moms who do treat their sons and daughters differently. What can we tell them? I would love to read what would you have told her if it wasn’t a friend…
Gosh tearsndreams, maybe I would have asked her what made her say what she did…. may be actually let her talk. Now I talk to her mother, we have become close now, and she is a very nice person, not really narrow minded but she fears that if filled her daughter’s head with ideas of equality she might find it difficult to adjust with her husband later … I say “Everyone kicks the groveler” , expecting mutual respect, expecting fair play and justice, and happiness and success and mutual support are ingredients for happy relationships. I will blog about some of our conversations …
The more people I meet, the more I see how different my life is compared to other girls my age, I realize what a great job my folks have done. Not once in our house was the message “because u are a girl” ever spoken or conveyed. Sky was the limit.
Sky is the limit when you are raised well. I also don’t believe that having or raising daughters is so scary … you must blog about your experiences !
nice post.
Please nominate your blog for bloggerschoice awards 2009.Read the link below and nominate your blog. Please vote for me also. After voting, comment on my blog and I assure my Votes for your blog.
http://realityviews.blogspot.com/2009/04/know-how-to-nominate-your-blog-for.html
Okay, I will check the link and vote for you and nominate my blog.
where did my comment go?
Published?? I had internet connection problems hence the delay in publishing or even seeing the comments
ur daughter, and neice…are really smart! My compliments to their insightful comments…
u r quite the feminist IHM.
I know what u mean…
my mom, was born and brought up in a village, she was wed at 16, studied till 12th and was considered the most educated in her village. a pioneer of sorts.
It because of her, that my sis and I are doctors today. Her persistence that we study. We become educated and thus liberated.
Hats off to your mom, my highest regds to her Cofeeismypoison, mothers can and do make a lot of difference
…but…we’re still expected to conform to the norms of old fashioned good girl norms [we don't] … but its expected…and its annoying as hell. I’m 25yrs old~! And my mom still annoys me with her unsure ideals…her desire to have us fit into society etc. but most of society refuses to think. or trust each other. or be honest. or whatever. Its frustrating really.
My mom was the same, she is still the same, just think how confusing it is for them, even when they know something is unfair, it’s so well drilled into their thinking, they just are so used to these, it requires a lot of clear thinking to see wrong from right. And that is a great beginning… if we know and acknowledge something wrong as wrong – that is the first, big step.
I hope i didn’t veer off the topic…too much.
Not at all coffeeismypoison, love such discussions and I am so glad to know about your mom
you are so right, mothers make a lot of difference. All you need is a changed mindset….
Yeah absolutely, we can raise daughters who can see that only the sky is the limit!!
lady u really ought to write a book on parenting! When u do I’ll be the first to pick a copy, I sooo badly need it ….
)
Lol Imp’s Mom
The tribals following a hunting – gathering way of life do not seem to have much gender discrimination. Why the discrimination started in later societies? Will like to know ur views abt that.
u leave me in a dilemma over which book to make…55er book of IHM or Parenting….;)
IHM -lol Crafty Shines
You are a sweetheart to say this 
)
ur niece, i’ve lost my heart to her…”u should sleep in time” !!!!!!! she sounds like a perfect treasure!
IHM -She’s precious because I never saw her for first eight years of her life ….I lost my heart to her here‘,
ur friend’s daughter sounds just like me…
i say that too, very often in fact
my grandma (dad’s ma) was partial to male grandchildren. when i was 5 ( i was too introspective at 5, then the world ruined me) I asked her the reason. she cited an old saying in malayalam that means “when a man goes away, he brings back silk, when a woman goes away, she brings back a baby”. I asked her back, “the silk will tear one day, but won’t the baby remain always? so isn’t that more valuable?”
IHM – That was a good answer Crafty Shines!! And maybe girls bring back silk too… and more. I know of friends who have faced the same thinking with their grand mothers… they just don’t realise how injustice hurts little children. Very indirectly she made sure you will not do this to any other little (or grown up) girl
grandma adviced mom to teach her daughter manners and to live within the boundaries that a girl shud live in, n not fly around with these rebellious back answers….
IHM- These words about boundaries for girls are just conditioning, no truth in them Crafty Shines, and I can sense that you felt the incorrectness of them even at 5! You will love what Veena has written above, about , “the sky is the limit”.. That is the truth, not what your grand mom said!!!
ur line “Biases can actually strenghten us” touched me. U got me wishin i knew u when i was growing up…..ur words empower IHM. heartfelt hugs
IHM – Awww
i read the first post about how u met your niece.
freaked my mom when she walked in my room to find me wiping tears while staring at the pc.
next time u meet your niece, give her a good long hug and tell her its from me
also tell her that tho i have not seen her, i love her.
just like wonderful dads, u have great moms in ur family too IHM. at least I know of one already
Awww Crafty Shines…. Thank You …(overwhelmed)
And, I will definitely tell her, I will call her in the morning and tell her
I knew you were going to love this post ….
I agree with tearsndreams. The fact that your daughter is a sceptic is something that you should rejoice in. The day we never have to use the words feminism or discrimination again, simply because there is no cause to, will be the day when we are truly liberated. Oh, and also any sentence that starts with “Because she/he is a girl/boy…”
Frespirit I agree
I was proud 
P.S.: Please do post the reading list. I’m dying to have a look at it
I will do that, I think it’s a great tag also, we should all share our reading lists …okay I will make it my next post!!
Good idea!
you know i wanted a girl badly for many reasons, because i never had brothers, because i didn’t want my husband to miss out on teh magic of a daughter’s love…becasue i think daughters are so crucial to teh bonding in a family…
then i had two boys and i am very happy too..now i just think that i must make these two boys into adults that will someday make a girl very happy and proud…
Suma, that’s such wise thinking!!! I also believe in the power of the hand that rocks the cradle…..the boy who respects his wife as an equal also respects his mother, as an independent mind.
You niece is too cute IHM! And its testimony to your good mothering that your daughter hasnt seen any discrimination
It usually hurts more and we feel things more strongly when loved ones are the ones being partial. Seriously IHM write a book on parenting 
IHM, You must be a wonderful mom to your children!!! They are so very lucky!!! I agree with Bones and Solilo, You should write a book – I will certainly be queuing up for it!
Seriously, your posts inspire me to atleast try and be such a mom – they are so amazing to read!
But I guess, the confidence that our parents give us – helps us get going.. I just hope I can give my daughter the same level of confidence..
Your niece is so caring – such a sweetheart!!! and your daughter is truly lucky that she has just not come across discrimination! I was brought up this way – but have come across enough of it as soon as I stepped into the real world
As for your friend’s daughter is lucky to have you to speak to, there must be so many girls like her, in much worse conditions, who just will not have any support whatsoever…
Thanks for the tag, I’ll do it ASAP-which I fear may not be too soon, thanks to exams.
i laffed my head off at the “you shud sleep on time” and pondered away at the “Biases can actually strenghten us”.. how do u come up with such lines? u know the deep, though provoking kind?
btw, LOOOOOOOVED your new header… totally fab.!
Mandira, Thank you
Have been thinking about conversation number 3. And, while it was asked of you, I can respond thus
“I know they tend to have a double standard for men and women. But you know what, its the way they think. You cannot let them define you and your successes. While it is true that a lot of rights cannot just be had, unless everyone outside steps in, it is also true that a conducive environment exists outside, you just have to decide to live it. There is a dual expectation from women- super mom or drudge, never allowed to be a human being, but you do not have to let that come in your way. Say, you want to go abroad for higher studies, but your family wants you to “settle” down. Do what you want to. True you will alienate people- but would you not live life, which is entirely your own life on your terms and ruffle a few feathers, rather than keep everyone happy and stifle living a life you do not like? Never underestimate your own power. It is there and very real and very strong too. And you can force people to see things the way you see them, if you keep on. It is not easy- but then living life, as opposed to existing rarely is.”
I just realized that this is general advice that would be for success in any field.
And how I agree with every inspiring word Allutude! Just highlighted some …
loved this post too!!
kinda related 
IHM I am going mad reading all the amazing posts that you have done!
lucky me!
I agree infcat this has inspired me to bring out an old draft soon
(((hugs))you are an awesome mom!
and you need to write on bringing up kids like Bones says
feminism is a way of life
it should be…but first it needs to get out of the mess that people have put it in..the way it constantly gets misinterpreted
I guess you are right, I always say Feminism gets bad press, some compare it with male-bashing, some with manliness, some with bra-burning (never happened in the first place!) – all this makes women generally apologetic about feminism, or simply to be allowed to just be
It’s worse when women misinterpret and talk of… ‘whether thorn falls on rose or rose falls on thorn, it’s the rose that suffers’; so women must behave!! Our conditioning is rock solid!! 
Hi, interesting post. I have been pondering this topic,so thanks for posting. I will certainly be coming back to your posts.
It goes without saying.
Nonsense!
Go on!
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